I don't know there is a solution, other than to find 'better' customers. It sounds like you're doing it right to me. Non-technical customers often want you to spend 30min on the phone with them and then give them a price for the whole thing, so it's good you take the time over it properly. However then you often waste your time.
Maybe you need to say 'no' to customers who you don't think are serious. Or charge for the time spent doing highly skilled estimation work.
By 'better' customers I mean bigger companies, who are more experienced with software (and also probably have bigger budgets). The downside is more paperwork - you are much more 'free' dealing with small firms but also more at risk.
You don't have to stick to a fixed-price contract, for requirements that are vague you should look at doing time and materials.
Basically you need to spread the risk of the cost of overrun between you and the client.
A hybrid option might be to do some T&M proof of concept work then fixed price for the rest when you understand it better.
Alternatively, if you client has a pot of money then use your agile strengths to work with the customer to incrementally deliver functionality until they run out of money.
"We do not want to spend 20-30 hours of team effort."
Then don't.
If your estimating method is too costly, stop doing it.
"Customers ... are interested in Cost."
Then get them a cost more quickly. Do less work. Don't use a team of 3-4 for 20-30 hours. Have one person do it quickly.
One person can create a spreadsheet with stories, story points, priority, hours and cost. That's the project backlog for Scrum. That's the estimate. That's enough to start a conversation. It's not a fixed-price estimate.
A simple spreadsheet with stories, story points, price and priority is all you need. Then you can work with the customer to adjust priorities to determine how many of those stories they can actually afford to buy.
If they want a fixed price, you simply need to review each story summary to see if the points are right. You already have the spreadsheet, and the priorities, and the formula to compute price.
The unfortunate short answer is you are going to have to significantly reduce your estimation costs. The only way to do that is to reduce the number of people to one and use a formula approach.
Take a best guess. Put reasonable assumptions in the contract. If you do a decent job, some will be a little high, some will be a little low and it will average out in the end. If you are off by too much, track changes within the project and charge for them. The key will be in the assumptions placed in the contract, usually in the form of a statement of work.
This is normal business, from small projects to enterprise projects. Just a matter of scale. It doesn't have to be done this way, but it often is.
This reminds me of the challenge between time, money, people and overall quality. Some people can see this easily and others may struggle with the idea. Part of the key point here is to understand is what kind of expectations do you want to set and what kind of leeway do you have with the customer. For example, how are bugs in the software or overall support factored into the project.
You may want to consider how much work do you want to do upfront and on what kind of scale are you spending the 20-30 hours estimating a project. Comparing the cost of that much time spent generating an estimate, which @ $40/hour is $800-1,200 by the way, to what the revenue from the project would be is something to consider. If the entire project is $400, then was it worth spending twice that coming up with an estimate? On the flip side, for million dollar projects, it may well make sense to spend that kind of money.
My suggestion would be to see if there is a cookie-cutter approach that could be taken for their projects so that there isn't as much variability to the projects if that is possible.
创建一个模板电子表格，其中包含典型工作的时间和成本，查看初始要求并更新您的模板。开始对话时，这只是大概情况，但我们需要共同努力确认最终价格并获得更准确的估算。这个更准确的估算过程将需要 x 小时并花费 x 美元。
Theres two sides of estimation, first creating the initial 'ball park' figure this should be done relatively quickly, it should be emphasised its a ball park figure and its the start of your conversation with your customer, its not a contract. Second you do your more detailed team based estimation.
Create a template spreadsheet with times and costs for typical pieces of work, look at the initial requirement and update your template. Start the conversation with this is the ball park but we will need to work together to confirm a final price and get a more accurate estimate. This more accurate estimation process will take x hours and cost x dollars.
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除了寻找“更好”的客户之外，我不知道还有其他解决方案。听起来你对我来说是对的。非技术客户通常希望您花 30 分钟与他们通电话，然后给他们整个产品的价格，所以您最好花点时间好好考虑一下。然而，这样你常常会浪费时间。
也许您需要对您认为不认真的客户说“不”。或者对花在高技能估算工作上的时间进行收费。
我所说的“更好”客户是指更大的公司，他们在软件方面更有经验（而且可能有更大的预算）。缺点是文书工作较多——您可以更“自由”地与小公司打交道，但风险也更大。
I don't know there is a solution, other than to find 'better' customers. It sounds like you're doing it right to me. Non-technical customers often want you to spend 30min on the phone with them and then give them a price for the whole thing, so it's good you take the time over it properly. However then you often waste your time.
Maybe you need to say 'no' to customers who you don't think are serious. Or charge for the time spent doing highly skilled estimation work.
By 'better' customers I mean bigger companies, who are more experienced with software (and also probably have bigger budgets). The downside is more paperwork - you are much more 'free' dealing with small firms but also more at risk.
您不必遵守固定价格合同，对于模糊的要求，您应该考虑时间和材料。
基本上，您需要在您和客户之间分散成本超支的风险。
混合选项可能是进行一些 T&M 概念验证工作，然后在您更好地理解后为其余部分固定价格。
或者，如果您的客户有一大笔钱，那么可以利用您的敏捷优势与客户合作，逐步交付功能，直到他们耗尽资金。
You don't have to stick to a fixed-price contract, for requirements that are vague you should look at doing time and materials.
Basically you need to spread the risk of the cost of overrun between you and the client.
A hybrid option might be to do some T&M proof of concept work then fixed price for the rest when you understand it better.
Alternatively, if you client has a pot of money then use your agile strengths to work with the customer to incrementally deliver functionality until they run out of money.
“我们不想花费 20-30 个小时的团队努力。”
那就不要。
如果您的估算方法成本太高，请停止使用。
“客户……对成本感兴趣。”
然后更快地向他们收取费用。少做点工作。不要让 3-4 人的团队工作 20-30 小时。让一个人快速完成。
一个人可以创建一个包含故事、故事点、优先级、时间和成本的电子表格。这就是 Scrum 的项目积压。这就是估计。这足以开始对话。这不是固定价格估计。
您只需要一个简单的电子表格，其中包含故事、故事点、价格和优先级。然后，您可以与客户合作调整优先级，以确定他们实际上可以购买多少个故事。
如果他们想要固定价格，您只需查看每个故事摘要以查看要点是否正确。您已经有了电子表格、优先级以及计算价格的公式。
"We do not want to spend 20-30 hours of team effort."
Then don't.
If your estimating method is too costly, stop doing it.
"Customers ... are interested in Cost."
Then get them a cost more quickly. Do less work. Don't use a team of 3-4 for 20-30 hours. Have one person do it quickly.
One person can create a spreadsheet with stories, story points, priority, hours and cost. That's the project backlog for Scrum. That's the estimate. That's enough to start a conversation. It's not a fixed-price estimate.
A simple spreadsheet with stories, story points, price and priority is all you need. Then you can work with the customer to adjust priorities to determine how many of those stories they can actually afford to buy.
If they want a fixed price, you simply need to review each story summary to see if the points are right. You already have the spreadsheet, and the priorities, and the formula to compute price.
不幸的是，简短的答案是您将不得不大幅降低估算成本。唯一的方法是将人数减少到一个并使用公式方法。
做出最好的猜测。在合同中提出合理的假设。如果你做得不错，有些会有点高，有些会有点低，最后会平均下来。如果偏差太大，请跟踪项目内的更改并收取费用。关键在于合同中的假设，通常以工作说明书的形式。
这是正常的业务，从小项目到企业项目。只是规模问题。不一定要这样做，但通常都是这样。
The unfortunate short answer is you are going to have to significantly reduce your estimation costs. The only way to do that is to reduce the number of people to one and use a formula approach.
Take a best guess. Put reasonable assumptions in the contract. If you do a decent job, some will be a little high, some will be a little low and it will average out in the end. If you are off by too much, track changes within the project and charge for them. The key will be in the assumptions placed in the contract, usually in the form of a statement of work.
This is normal business, from small projects to enterprise projects. Just a matter of scale. It doesn't have to be done this way, but it often is.
这让我想起了时间、金钱、人员和综合素质之间的挑战。有些人很容易看出这一点，而另一些人可能会对此感到困惑。这里的关键点之一是要了解您想要设定什么样的期望以及您对客户有什么样的回旋余地。例如，软件中的错误或整体支持如何纳入项目中。
您可能需要考虑您想要预先完成多少工作以及您花费 20-30 小时来评估项目的规模。将花费大量时间进行估算的成本（顺便说一句，每小时 40 美元相当于 800-1,200 美元）与项目的收入进行比较，这是值得考虑的事情。如果整个项目花费 400 美元，那么花费两倍的费用进行估算是否值得？另一方面，对于价值数百万美元的项目来说，花这么多钱可能很有意义。
我的建议是看看是否有一种千篇一律的方法可以用于他们的项目，这样如果可能的话，项目就不会有太多的可变性。
This reminds me of the challenge between time, money, people and overall quality. Some people can see this easily and others may struggle with the idea. Part of the key point here is to understand is what kind of expectations do you want to set and what kind of leeway do you have with the customer. For example, how are bugs in the software or overall support factored into the project.
You may want to consider how much work do you want to do upfront and on what kind of scale are you spending the 20-30 hours estimating a project. Comparing the cost of that much time spent generating an estimate, which @ $40/hour is $800-1,200 by the way, to what the revenue from the project would be is something to consider. If the entire project is $400, then was it worth spending twice that coming up with an estimate? On the flip side, for million dollar projects, it may well make sense to spend that kind of money.
My suggestion would be to see if there is a cookie-cutter approach that could be taken for their projects so that there isn't as much variability to the projects if that is possible.
估算有两个方面，首先创建初始的“大概”数字，这应该相对较快地完成，应该强调它是一个大概的数字，并且是与客户对话的开始，它是不是合同。其次，您进行更详细的基于团队的估算。
这家咨询公司就是这样做的 - 棒球场估算
创建一个模板电子表格，其中包含典型工作的时间和成本，查看初始要求并更新您的模板。开始对话时，这只是大概情况，但我们需要共同努力确认最终价格并获得更准确的估算。这个更准确的估算过程将需要 x 小时并花费 x 美元。
Theres two sides of estimation, first creating the initial 'ball park' figure this should be done relatively quickly, it should be emphasised its a ball park figure and its the start of your conversation with your customer, its not a contract. Second you do your more detailed team based estimation.
This is how this consulting company does it - Ball Park Estimating
Create a template spreadsheet with times and costs for typical pieces of work, look at the initial requirement and update your template. Start the conversation with this is the ball park but we will need to work together to confirm a final price and get a more accurate estimate. This more accurate estimation process will take x hours and cost x dollars.